Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. (2024)

Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore.

So Patch 7 introduced very different reactions of Evil and Good Astarions to the same events, like:

After this, it looks weird that Spawn would still share many very evil approvals with AA in Act 3 like, for example:

But a lot of players still judge characters by their approvals, so in my opinion, it's more than just an oversight in the gameplay, it waters down the arc of his character development in Act 3.
I'm only bringing this up, because I don't think it would take a lot to fix it.

Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore.

Rote90#94896808/09/24 09:06 AM

Unfortunately, from what I understand from my datamining endeavors, I don't think it's actually possible for them to do this. Their approval system doesn't take branching paths into account. Basically, approvals have no flags attached to them at all, so it has nothing set to distinguish between changes to the character. It's the same for SH.

I'd say they could try to neutralise approvals so there'd be less disparity, but it'd also lead to some problems, like AA not having any approval for things he'd obviously approve of. The newer toolkit allows to edit the script so I suppose people could make mods for AA exclusive approvals and Spawn exclusive approvals. They couldn't work together, though. You'd have to pick for which route you're going for.

Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore.

Rote90#94896908/09/24 09:16 AM

It's unfortunate, indeed.
Well, maybe in this case at least get rid of the obvious contradictions? Like in my previous examples:

And mods are... well, it's not canonical character writing still. So in this sense, Spawn would still be forever canonically characterized by approving very evil things.
But if it's so hard or impossible to implement, then yeah, I do not insist, I understand.

Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore.

Rote90#94897208/09/24 09:41 AM

Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore.

Rote90#94897308/09/24 09:53 AM

Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore.

Rote90#951777Yesterday at 11:22 AM

People have found an example where Larian did make different approvals based on the path Shadowheart is on:

This case does exist already. This happens during Astarion's ritual and Selune Shadowheart disapproves of the ritual, while DJ Shadowheart approves. Just copy-paste one line of code.
So this can absolutely be implemented further. And it should. Like I said, the majority of players do judge characters by their approvals, hence Astarion can't be left in this state where he has no difference between his good and evil paths.
Larian, you have written Spawn Astarion as his healing redemption path in all of his dialogues. Please, commit to it fully now, before you walk away from this game. By ignoring this issue you are making a great disservice to this character and your own writing. Spawn Astarion becoming a better person and Ascended Astarion becoming a terrible person should absolutely be reflected in his Act 3 approval system.

Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore.

Rote90#951780Yesterday at 12:45 PM

Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore.

Rote90#951782Yesterday at 01:32 PM

Not true at all. What would have been even the point of his two different paths if he stayed the same evil person in both of them?
He has completely different reactions to a lot of scenes in Act 3, depending on whether he is Spawn or Ascended, only Ascended is okay with evil Tav taking over the Brain - this is the biggest and the most obvious clue. Act 1 Astarion really wanted to take over the Absolute.
Tav cheating with Mizora aftermath scene shows how Spawn admits he is actively trying to become a better person.
A lot of good characters straight up call Spawn a good person, his epilogue depicts him either becoming a hero or helping other spawns in the Underdark. All of his Arc is about him either becoming a better person after refusing the ritual, or becoming an awful being as Ascended.
If you attack Spawn in the epilogue as a mindflayer, other companions all support him and fight against you. If you attack AA - everyone joins you and help you to kill him.
Only AA being evil was also confirmed in different interviews by Larian and Neil.
Not to mention, that in the game's files his two paths are explicitly called "good" and "evil".

We have TONS of evidence that Spawn is supposed to be his good path and saying otherwise isn't supported by anything at all if we take these messed up approvals out of the picture.
But what you did is only proved my point - Larian really needs to fix his approvals to make their intention and their writing clear to a lot of people who still dismiss their message and writing going by his approvals only. Unfortunately, people still pay too much attention to the approval system, so it really needs to be done. Otherwise, all of the tremendous work Larian did for Astarion's two paths will stay undermined forever.

Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore.

Rote90#951812Yesterday at 03:23 PM

Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore.

Rote90#9518435 hours ago

Well, in my game everyone was against AA. Maybe they've changed it in Patch 7, idk, but it definitely was the case. Maybe you need to be a mindflayer for it and try to eat his brain? I'm talking about my playthroughs as mindflayer Tav when I failed my check not to eat AA/Spawn brain.

Vampire spawns are not neutral evil by default in BG3 (Not to mention that Astarion always looked like chaotic for me). Sebastian and kids are obviously good vampire spawns. Larian got rid of the alignment system on purpose.
Anyway, you have no evidence, aside from this very questionable approval system, that Spawn was suppossed to be evil as AA. You are wrong that his worldview system stays the same and that he reacts the same - one example is his scene after cheating with Mizora, where he straight up reflects on the fact that people shouldn't be selfish, including himself. You are ignoring facts from canon about his completely 180 different reactions to the same actions of the main character. Taking over the Brain is not about how he is personally treated at all. Just like Shadowheart's approval about the Ritual is not about her at all.
My point still stands: since Shadowheart does have different approvals based on the path she is on, the same should be done with Astarion, since a lot of his opinions in his dialogues/reactions are completely the opposite to each other based on the path he is on. Again, the most obvious and clear examples are his reactions to Tav cheating with Mizora and evil Tav taking over the Brain. But also a lot of little ones, like, for example, only Spawn will say that he is not afraid of Durge killing him. I'm pretty sure he was supposed to have a lot more scenes like that, but seeing as Act 3 is just generally undercooked, I take it as Larian just not having enough time to implement all the scenes which needed to be different for Spawn and AA. Well, making their approvals different is a great way to fix this problem without spending resources on his scenes.

Also, basically Neil confirmed that only AA is a terrible-terrible person, when talking about different Astarion's paths: "...can become a friend, fall in love OR become a terrible-terrible person."
I'm not saying that Larian should rework the whole Act 3 approval system. I'm not saying that Spawn should suddenly become an angel, no, that would be as unbelievable approval system as it is now. But the most vile approvals, which were obviously only reserved for AA (like betraying Aylin to Lorroakan, for example) absolutely shoudn't be applied to Spawn. Especially because this approval directly contradict his dialogue. And not only his, Minthara is also very vocal against selling Aylin but somehow she still approves?
Sorry, but Act 3 approvals system is still a mess. One year after release.

Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore.

Rote90#9518483 hours ago

That's a lot of criticism from someone who claims to be a fan of AA. Sounds like you genuinely hate the character.

UA may no longer care about taking over the brain (AA is actually perfectly fine with destroying it, seeing how happy he is in the epilogue and that he no longer has to deal with the "stupid" worm), but he sure doesn't intend to miss his second chance to obtain new powers and still enjoys killing people, bloodshed and chaos.

Neil also said that AA drops all of his masks, which are all a distraction that he uses to hide his real feelings. AA just unashamedly displays all the darkness that's inside him, while UA still pretends and manipulates to get what he wants. His newest lines in patch 7 further show that he's still pitying himself - with Mizora he claims that "even he deserves better" and when Durge embraces Bhaal he bitterly laughs that he gets a front row seat for his "sins".

UA simply adjusts his behaviour because he notices that most people respond better to "good actions" and he can get more from them this way, as evidenced in his "hero" ending.

Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore.

Rote90#9518503 hours ago

I'm a fan of EVIL AA.
I don't need to pretend he is a good boy to love him as a character. In fact, I love him BECAUSE he is evil and abusive. I don't need him to be similar to Spawn, it's too boring. There is a lot of value in Astarion's both paths exactly because they are so different.
You talk like there is any shame in loving villains. I don't need to justify myself to you. Neil is fenomenal in the role of terrible being AA, Larian should not water him down.

Neil said that AA is Astarion at his WORST. He never talked about Spawn and never said anything about Spawn lying. You are twisting his words. He never said this about Astarion who refused the ritual. What he meant was that AA doesn't shy away from his evil ways. His words which I quoted just confirm it.

It's entirely your interpretation which has no proof in canon. Even Karlach, who everyone deems an angel, loves killing her enemies.
Like I said, I'm not claiming that Spawn is an angel, but he is definitely isn't evil like AA. He confesses he does understand how awful he was and he is actively trying to atone for his sins and become a better person. Your quotes just confirm my words, thank you for them.

Not to mention, that a lot of his approvals just straight up contradict his own dialogues. Spawn tells Durge: "Don't become his [talking about Bhaal]". He tells them they will save Durge from Bhaal. Why would he approve of Durge accepting Bhaal suddenly? And in the same dialogue he will approve of Durge saying that they don't want to harm anyone anymore. It looks like this approval system was made by completely different people, who didn't even look at other approvals or dialogues. Like: "Let's see, who are evil companions? Oh, Astarion and Minthara! They would approve!" It's like some intern came to Larian and assigned half of these approvals so they make no sense at all.
Like I said, even without making AA/Spawn distinction, Act 3 approval system is a huge mess. It's in a dire need of being fixed.

If anyone from Larian is reading this: you see how people interpret Spawn's path because of his approvals?
One more evidence it needs to be fixed.

Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore.

Rote90#9518512 hours ago

That would sound more sincere if you didn't constantly put AA and UA in the same sentences and compared them.

I said nothing of the sort. I love fictional villains myself.

Yes, he only talked about AA. And I see the opposite of dropping masks when I see how UA behaves.

You say I twist his words, but then claim you know exactly what he meant. That's also an interpretation.

He literally says "no one minds the killing as long as you kill the right people". He's tactical about his targets.

What sins? Being forced to do things he didn't want to do under mind control? All he's doing is feeling sorry for himself, and regretting he didn't see through Tav earlier.

I see it as him being ride or die with Tav and accepting their choices, no matter how terrible they may be. Unless they end up hurting him personally.

Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore.

Rote90#9518522 hours ago

I said multiple times that I love and play both of his paths and I want Larian to be fair to both of them. If you think I don't have the right to do so in order to be called a "true AA fan", so be it, it's your opinion.

Because you are taking only one of his quotes into consideration. I judge by both. He did say that one of his paths is becoming "a terrible-terrible person". So yes, I see no contradictions in my interpretation of his words. He was very clear that becoming a terrible person is only one of the possible different paths for Astarion. Of course, Act 1 Astarion always wears a mask. And by Neil's own words, AA is at his worst without a mask. He said nothing about Spawn after the ritual, so it's only your interpretation which I completely disagree with. No one from Larian ever said that Spawn is evil. On the contrary, another example is when Adam Smith clearly called AA his "evil ending".

So? This observation is on point. Personally, I take it as a joke. Completely suits his sarcastic humor. He doesn't kill innocents - this is all that matters. He does enjoy killing bad people - but so does Karlach and even Wyll.

Being selfish, manipulating Tav in Act 1, trying to bite Tav without their consent, not caring about other people, etc. Strange question after voting for "Spawn is evil just like AA". It has nothing to do with what he did under Cazador. He was evil in Act 1.

Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore.

Rote90#9518551 hour ago

I have to wonder why you're bringing this all up in a thread meant to be about UA. Can you not just construct your points about why you think UA should have different approvals without dragging why you think AA is terrible into it? I also don't think it's fair to start dragging AA fans into this, and accuse us of "wanting him to be like spawn" (no thank you, that's why we don't choose spawn), and like we don't acknowledge he is evil. He is evil. We like that. Being a "terrible" villain doesn't automatically equate to being a domestic abuser. And not agreeing he is one doesn't mean we don't think he's evil. There are far more nuanced and interesting ways to be evil than that. Many PCs are also "terrible, terrible people", but we do not roleplay as abusers. That seems quite a bit off track to why you think UA should have different approval systems.

In an attempt to get this back on track and constructive, as an evil character/villain lover, I don't agree that UA's approval system needs to change. We know the VA says spawn is "not exactly his good path." It's tagged as his "good-er" path, as the devs acknowledge that calling him good doesn't fit the bill. They also included a multitude of lines in the epilogue where Astarion can remind the player he isn't good. As far as: "Oh darling, *good* people dont spend as much time in the shadows as I do."

Given, since we like discussing the VA, the VA also says he's mask off as AA, which we seem okay acknowledging here, would it not be consistent with UA still being theatrical and mask on, to display pretence and say things the companions, and a good PC, might want to hear, while still holding his same approvals? I think it aligns perfectly with what the game outright acknowledges. His origin ending is him ready to feast on a tied up victim in a cave. And his evil origin is the same as AA. That is to say, the game dialogue and options for UA directly seems to answer your question as to why approval isn't "good aligned" for him. Because, put simply, he isn't good!

Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore.

illeaillas-san#9518561 hour ago

At the same time you always complain about UA getting shafted in favour of AA and use negative adjectives when talking about him. You're just victimising yourself now and twisting my words.

He also said Astarion's "good" story ending is not exactly good, just "non-evil". Precisely, when he's without his mask he shows his evil side freely, without filters. Larian said that AA is still Astarion [that we know]. I don't see him as fundamentally different from UA, just acting a little less nice. And he was always a bit "terrible", AA just doesn't feel bad about being true to himself anymore.

That was my point, that he adjusts to what works better and not because he's this "good" person after one non-selfish action. In his origin ending he's getting ready to feast on a tied up man. We don't know if he's an innocent or not.

He doesn't specify these things, that's only your guess. Besides, he still manipulates Tav just before the ritual so Tav helps him and at the end of the game lying that he would understand if Tav wanted to go their separate ways. Also, he's not obliged to care about anyone, that's not a sin. Again, he is still evil deep down, just behaving nicer towards others than AA does.

Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore.

Rote90#9518571 hour ago

i'm not sure if its possible to change but yeah him disapproving of the nightsong makes no sense to me, especially since he has all that dialog that the player would assume he approves of killing the wizard only to end up disapproving. As for the rest of his disapprovals, they don't really bother me, I know how to keep him at 100 the whole game, I more of see them as him pouting. The only other disapproval I think they should change because it makes no sense for him to disapprove of would be:

Those are really the only two big changes in disapprovals I'd personally want to see but other than he just pouts a lot lol